Grandview Woodland Area Council
December 10, 2018

Owing to GWAC’s cautious position stated July 8, 2018, many residents in the community believe that GWAC supported this proposal as presented.

DETOX - GWAC supports community-based and community-scaled detox in all Vancouver neighbourhoods. GWAC does not support the conglomeration of several major detox facilities in Vancouver at this one location, and does not support the closing of two established detox centres, and does not support the subsequent reduction in number of beds from these closures.

HOUSING - GWAC supports the number of proposed housing units and area of the housing component of the project. GWAC supports housing built in conformance to the policy described in the section 6.4.2. of the Grandview-Woodland Community Plan.

SOBERING - GWAC supports sobering centres located in or near law enforcement facilities. GWAC does not support locating Vancouver’s only 24-hour sobering centre removed from police oversight. Because clients will be leaving this facility on foot, in a high-traffic area poorly served by transit, they will be at risk. As well, residents and businesses in the 1st and Clark neighbourhood are concerned about releasing City-wide clients on our community streets.

SOCIAL ENTERPRISE - GWAC supports the creation of a Social Enterprise Centre. GWAC does not support using this proposed 3,700 square-foot facility to justify rezoning of industrial land protected in Section 6.4.4 of the Grandview Woodland Community Plan "The plan does not contemplate any land use changes in this industrial area"

GWAC sent the following letter to Vancouver City Council:
City of Vancouver Mayor and Council
December 10, 2018

Dear Mayor and Councillors

Please find attached Grandview Woodland Area Council’s updated position on the Housing, Detox, Sobering and Social Enterprise proposal for 1st Avenue and Clark Drive.
​
We trust that you will consider our position during consultation and decision making regarding this proposal.
If you have any questions, please let us know.

Sincerely,
​Dana Cromie, President
Grandview Woodland Area Council

Professor Patrick Condon will be a guest speaker at the November 5th monthly GWAC meeting.

Date: Monday, November 5th, 7pm - 9pm
Location: Learning Resource Centre, (LRC), Under the Britannia Library, 1661 Napier Street

​​The topic is transportation options along the Broadway corridor, funding models for development along the corridor, and options for affordable housing within those models. There will be an opportunity for questions and general discussion after Patrick Condon's presentation.

Professor Condon has researched and has written extensively about transit and affordable housing. A number of his articles are available on The Tyee. Please see the links below for additional details.

thetyee.ca/Bios/Patrick_Condon/
​https://sala.ubc.ca/people/faculty/patrick-condon

GWAC Public Forum
Monday, October 1st - 6PM to 9PM
Britannia Gym D

Mayor and Council
All Candidates Meeting
World Cafe Style
One of the most important events in the life of a city and in that of its citizens will occur on Saturday, October 20th – a municipal election for Vancouver’s mayor, councillors, park board commissioners, and school board trustees.
To increase voter turnout, create community, engage residents, air candidate platforms, and assess candidate accountability, GWAC has joined with other community groups to create East Van Votes, the organization which will sponsor a number of events where you can meet and ask questions of candidates vying local office.
Using the “world café” format, the events will offer individuals and representatives from each party an opportunity to speak for three minutes and then, after these short speeches, the balance of the time will be spent at tables, with 10-15 community residents in a 15-minute dialogue with a single candidate. After 15 minutes, candidates will rotate tables. Each table will have a moderator and a note taker, and the notes will be shared with our community through various platforms.
Dates to meet Mayor and City Council candidates:
•   Monday, Oct 1st at Britannia, 6:00–9:00pm, 1661 Napier (Light dinner at 5 pm)
•   Wednesday, Oct 9th at Ray-Cam, 5:30–9:00pm, 920 E. Hastings
Dates to meet School Board & Park Board candidates:
•   Saturday, Sept 29th at Britannia, 11:00-3:00pm (Lunch at 11 am)
•   Friday, Oct 12th at Strathcona, 6:30-9:30pm, 601 Keefer

Be part of the future of your city; cast your ballots on Saturday, October 20th.

The City of Vancouver is scheduling an Open House to provide details about a rezoning application for a 6-storey market rental building at 1535-1557 Grant Street. The Open House will be held on Tuesday, September 11th, between 5pm and 8pm at the Britannia Secondary School Cafeteria at 1001 Cotton Drive. Please note that the cafeteria is on the west side of the school (on the side with the big oval field). The City of Vancouver Rezoning webpage contains more details on this application.
​https://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/1535grant/index.htm

Vancouver City Council has scheduled a public hearing on ​the area-wide rezoning that affects properties along parts of East Pender Street, East 8th Avenue and East 10th Avenue. The GWAC Public Meeting Summary from May 7th, 2018 has more information about this area-wide rezoning.

Date: Wednesday, September 5, 2018
6:00 pm Council Chamber, Third Floor, City Hall, 453 West 12th Avenue (note: this is item #4 on the agenda)
​
Public Hearing agenda
council.vancouver.ca/20180905/phea20180905ag.htm

Speakers can sign up via email or phone, or in person at City Hall.

• Email publichearing@vancouver.ca
• Phone 604-829-4238

4. REZONING: Amendments to the Zoning and Development By-law Regarding the RM-8A/8AN Districts for Townhouse Areas in Cambie Corridor and Grandview-Woodland

• Summary and Recommendation 
• Draft By-law - Zoning and Development
• Draft By-law - Sign
• Draft By-law - Zoning and Development (re drainage issues)
• Policy Report dated July 6, 2018

The minutes of the June 4, 2018 GWAC meeting contain further information on the proposal.
Additional details on the proposal and on City policy are available via the links below.
Rezoning Centre City of Vancouver
Grandview-Woodland Community Plan
Memorandum of Understanding 

Please note that the upcoming GWAC meeting will be on Monday, July 9th. The first Monday of the month is a statutory holiday as part of the extended Canada Day long weekend.

The City of Vancouver has scheduled two items in the Grandview-Woodland planning area for the Public Hearing on Tuesday, July 26th, after 6pm at City Hall. Residents will have an opportunity to address Vancouver City Council at the time. The area-wide rezoning of parts of East 12th Avenue, East 1st Avenue, Garden Drive and Nanaimo Street is one of the items.

The GWAC Public Meeting Summary from Monday, 7 May 2018 has more information about this mass rezoning that will allow up to 4-storey buildings and a FSR of 1.7 outside of commercial zones for lot assemblies of 4 or more standard parcels. The area-wide rezoning contains a number of changes from the plan, including expanding the Nanaimo Street Shopping nodes by several blocks and to rezone these blocks as mixed commercial (C-2 zoning with a maximum 4-storey 45' height, 2.5FSR).

The other item is a rezoning for an eleven storey highrise at East 11th Avenue and Victoria Drive. The City's email notices are included below.

The Great Grandview Garage Sale will take place on Saturday, June 16th between 10am and 2pm (rain or shine). Find out more about this annual event at greatgrandview.ca.

The Italian Day festival is taking place this year on Sunday, June 10th between 12 noon and 8pm on Commercial Drive. To find out more about the events and exhibitors, please make sure to visit the italianday.ca website.

A record of the GWAC meeting held on June 4, 2018 is available below. We'd like to thank all those who attended and shared a variety of opinions on the matter. With respect to the rezoning application, there's an upcoming opportunity to give feedback directly to the City of Vancouver at an Open House on June 11th, 5 to 7:30 pm, at VCC, 1155 East Broadway, Building B, Room 1236 (access off East 7th Avenue and Glen Drive). An update: PDF files of the panels from the  Open House  have been posted on the City's rezoning webpage ( CoV boards,  applicant team boards ). An online feedback form on the City's webpage can be filled out to send in comments. 
​
GWAC Public Meeting
Monday, 4 June 2018
Learning Resource Centre (Britannia Library)
1st & Clark Detox and Affordable Housing Proposal
Special Guest Speakers and Contributors:
James Forsyth – Regional Director, BC Housing
Bonnie Wilson, – Director, Vancouver Coastal Health
Allison Dunnet – Senior Planner, Affordable Housing, City of Vancouver
Emme Lee – Development Manager, BC Housing
Mary Clare Zak – Managing Director, Social Policy & Projects, City of Vancouver
Smadar Levinson, – Manager, Vancouver Coastal Health
Ulrich Geissler, – Senior Project Design Architect, HDR | CEI Architects
Blaire Chishom – Vice President, Brook Pooni Associates
Dan Watson – Planner, Brook Pooni Associates
The meeting began at 7:06 pm
D. Cromie welcomed members of the public and special guests.

Community Announcements
June 2 FortisBc Open House Meeting Minutes (May 29, Croatian Cultural Centre) posted on line www.gwac.cc
June 5 City Council to Vote on Policy Reports on rezoning 11th & Victoria; Increase Housing Choice in GW (4 storeys), voting on the policy reports (could be referred to a future public meeting)
June 10 Italian Day on the Drive 12 to 8 pm
June 11 1st & Clark Health, Wellness, and Social Enterprise Centre Proposal Open House, 5 to 7:30 pm, Room 1236, Building B, 1155 E. Broadway (access off East 7th Avenue)
June 14 Grandview Garden Club. Learning Resource Centre, Britannia Library, 7 to 9 pm.
June 16 Great Grandview Garage Sale, 10 to 2 pm, across the GW neighbourhood. To register or to find the sales go to www.greatgrandview.ca
June 17 Grandview Garden Tour, 10 to 4 pm. Tickets $15 (at Figaro’s). Ticket sales donated to the upkeep of the Napier Greenway, maintained by volunteers.
June 21 Grandview Heritage Group, 7 to 9 pm. Britannia Boardroom.

D. Cromie passed the floor to James Forsyth who went over the reasons and desperate need for a new detox facility, affordable housing, and social enterprise centre in Vancouver. He explained that the proposed location offers easy and convenient access to transportation links, services, and amenities and is close to downtown. The tripartite alignment (BC Housing, Coastal Health, and the City of Vancouver) offer a unique opportunity and allows a partnership that will provide best practices in housing and health. There will be 51 withdrawal beds, 20 of which are transitional beds; the current detox centre has 24 beds.

FortisBC held an Open House on Tuesday, May 29th and provided additional details about the temporary closure of East 1st Avenue. GWAC was in attendance. For members of the public who were not able to attend the meeting, we've provided a synopsis of the meeting below.

Find out more about the BC Housing rezoning proposed for East 1st Avenue on the block between Clark Drive and McLean Drive (north side).

Date: Monday, June 4th, 7pm - 9pm
Location: Learning Resource Centre, (LRC), Under the Britannia Library, 1661 Napier Street

Representatives from Vancouver Coastal Health, BC Housing, the architects and the City of Vancouver will be on hand for the discussions.

Background
BC Housing: "The Province is working with the City of Vancouver and Vancouver Coastal Health to build approximately 100 affordable rental homes, as well as a new withdrawal management centre for people seeking treatment for addictions." (press release)

City of Vancouver: "​The proposal consists of a 12,192 sq. m (131,234 sq. ft.) mixed-use building and includes:
• social enterprise space at grade;
• withdrawal management centre operated by Vancouver Coastal Health, including up to 20 transitional units;
• 97 social housing units;
• floor space ratio (FSR) of 3.07;
• maximum building height of 30.5 m/100 ft. (fronting Clark Drive) and 19.8 m/65 ft. (fronting McLean Drive); and
• 39 car and 100 bicycle parking spaces." (rezoning centre webpage)

Rezoning Proposal Timeline
February 17, 2018: Announcement by BC Housing / VCH / CoV (BC Housing website)
April 23, 2018: Pre-application Open House (BC Housing website)
May 1, 2018: Rezoning application submitted (City of Vancouver website) 
June 11, 2018, Open House 5pm - 7:30pm Vancouver Community College (E7th & Glen Drive) Room 1236 Building B
June 13, 2018, Urban Design Panel (UDP) Review, Vancouver City Hall, 453 West 12th Avenue, 3pm (further details on the meeting agenda and UDP webpage)

Fortis BC is organizing a community meeting related to the closure of 1st Avenue over the summer months. Find out about traffic concerns and traffic calming measures.
​
Tuesday May 29th
Croatian Cultural Centre
3250 Commercial Drive
Room 4
5-7pm

If you are not able to attend this information session, then please visit Fortis at gaslineupgrades@fortisbc.com or 604.592.7494, or visit https://talkingenergy.ca/upgradeproject  ​

Background
www.fortisbc.com/MediaCentre/NewsReleases/2018/Pages/20180405-Construction-of-FortisBC-Gas-Line-Upgrade-set-to-start-in-spring-2018.aspx
www.news1130.com/2018/04/05/roadwork-vancouver/

Hello Grandview Woodland Resident(s)
Grandview Woodland Area Council (GWAC) understands residents’ concerns about increasing traffic volumes in neighbourhoods across Grandview Woodland. To help you deal with cut-through traffic and unsafe neighbourhood streets, we have compiled a resource sheet to provide information about what you can do to calm residential streets, to take them back for people and pets, not cars.
​
The first thing you need to do is figure out what traffic-calming is. You will find the resources from Better Environmentally Sound Transportation (BEST) very helpful as you begin to set up your traffic-calming group:
 
http://best.bc.ca/
 http://best.bc.ca/reclaim-your-street/
 
You can get more information from the  at http://vancouver.ca/streets-transportation/driving-and-traffic.aspx, and for specific help or to report your traffic concerns to the City’s representative on the Grandview Woodland Traffic & Parking Advisory Committee, Cara Fisher, at www.cara.fisher@vancouver.ca 

Another valuable resource is The Grandview Woodland Neighbourhood Transportation and Parking Committee, in particular the Stakeholders Advisory Group (SAG), on which a GWAC Board member sits. The City of Vancouver contact person is Cara Fisher on 604-326-4830 or cara.fisher@vancouver.ca 
 
Below is the committee’s most recent report site:
 
http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/grandview-woodland-neighbourhood-transportation-and-parking.pdf
 
It is advisable to check with the City about the traffic-calming process and available traffic-calming measures, for both have under gone changes over the past few years. 

Details on how to sign up and speak will be posted on the City's website. http://vancouver.ca/meetingschedule 
Information on this application is available on the following link:
rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/1619-1651ebroadway/index.htm

The order of the agenda for May 22nd has not been set yet. Other rezoning applications will also be debated including a 6-storey building proposed for 2109 East Hastings:
http://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/2109ehastings/index.htm

​GWAC Public Meeting Monday, 7 May 2018
Learning Resource Centre (Britannia Library)
Special Guest Speakers and Contributors: Area-Wide Rezoning 
Joseph Jones, Jeanette Jones, Jim Lehto, Elizabeth Murphy, and Steve Bohus (facilitator/media)
The meeting began at 7:06 pm
D. Cromie welcomed members of the public and special guests and reminded attendees to use the new name-tag identification system for our meetings. He also pointed out the Donations Jar sitting on the Membership Table and welcomed people to sign up to be GWAC members and to donate to support our non-profit organization.
Business Arising: No new business to report.
Correspondence Report:
D. Cromie compiled exit poll results from the proposed Mixed-Use Detox Facility Open House at 1636 Clark Drive and 1st Avenue and sent them to the Mayor and Council. We printed 100 questionnaires and received 100 responses, most with comments. Beyond the basic 49 no's and 40 yes's, the size answers are much more telling: 36% found this proposal acceptable at the proposed size or larger; a further 7% would find this proposal acceptable at 75% of the proposed size; a further 15% would find this proposal acceptable at 50% of the proposed size. Clearly, rather than saying no, the neighbours are saying this project is too big as proposed. Respondents acknowledged the need for more detox facilities in the city, but many asked that proposed project be scaled back. GWAC has long supported distribution of services rather than concentrating them in a single neighbourhood or area.
He also mentioned that GWAC has received several inquiries and requests for information from residents who are worried about the summer closure of East 1st Avenue, from Nanaimo to Clark Drive, and the already-increasing traffic volumes on their neighbourhood streets. In an effort to inform people about traffic calming, S. Briggs has put together Traffic-Calming Tool Kit, which is basically a two-page primer for novice traffic calmers. The kit will be posted to the GWAC website: www.gwac.ca.
Treasurer’s Report: No Report

​Community Announcements:
Great Grandview Neighbourhood Garage Sale: Coming to the streets across the GW catchment area on Saturday, June 16th, 10 to 2 pm. Everyone is invited to participate—just put your stuff in front of your homes and sell. 
Grandview Garden Club, Thursday, May 10th, 7 to 9 pm, Learning Resource Centre. Topic: Creative Containers. Presenter: Tammyanne Matthew, Landscape Architect.
Stone Soup Festival, Saturday, May 12th, Noon to 5 pm. Britannia Site and Napier Greenway. Website: https://www.britanniacentre.org/community/events/events_calendar/events/65.php
Mothers’ Day Traditional Pow Wow, Sunday, May 13th, 11 am to 9 pm. Britannia Gym A/B and Napier Greenway. Website: https://www.britanniacentre.org/community/events/events_calendar/events/65.php
Grandview Heritage Group, Thursday, May 17th, 7 to 9 pm. Britannia Boardroom. The group has just celebrated its seventh anniversary—congratulations. For more information on the Heritage Group, please check the website: http://grandviewheritagegroup.org/.
Grandview Garden Tour, Sunday, June 17th, 10 to 4 pm. Tickets $15 (at Figaro’s). This year, there are 12 Gardens on the tour. For more information check the website: http://eastsidegardentour.blogspot.ca/

After the announcements, S. Bohus took the floor to introduce the guests and the area-wide mass re-zoning.
Last Fall (2017), RT5 zones were re-zoned. The Grandview Woodland Community Plan introduced 4-storey Secured Rentals, but that proposal has been taken off the table (for north of East Hastings on the east side of Nanaimo). What is left is 3.5 and 4 storey zoning across the catchment, basically an area-wide mass rezoning. The City may be in the final stages of this rezoning; there were Open Houses held in January and March of 2018. The panels shown to the public in March stated that a recommendations for the 4-storey zones would be brought to City Council in the spring, which would presumably go to Public Hearing.
12th Avenue (Clark to John Hendry Park): An area-wide rezoning is available for the south side of 12th Avenue, as well as the first block east of Clark on the north side. The City recommends 4-storey apartments, with a maximum of 1.7 FSR for lot assemblies of 4 units or more (compared to 1.0FSR for a single lot or 1.2 FSR for assemblies of two or three lots). Spot rezoning is available for the part of the north side of 12th Ave; it is not included in the mass area rezoning.
The area-wide 4-storey apartment zones are also recommended for East 1st Avenue (from just east of Commercial to Semlin Drive), as well as Garden Drive (7th to 8th and 10th to 11th).
Note: Change in density with mass rezoning (lot assembly means density goes up). 
Grandview Community Plan, passing in 2016, limits/defines height to 40 feet or 3.5 storeys, with 1.3 FSR (page 91 of the Plan) from Semlin Drive to Garden Drive on 1st Ave.
Townhouse/Row houses are approved for arterial streets. For example, at 1st and Templeton, townhouses or row houses can now be built on four or more assembled lots. Clearly, the City is incentivizing lot assembly. At Charles and Kitchener between Nanaimo and Kamloops, zoning is proposed for townhouses or row houses on the middle of the block. A number of blocks on Nanaimo from East Pender all the way down to East 12th Avenue (outside of the shopping nodes) are proposed to be in a 3.5-storey row house/townhouse zone, with a choice of use at grade that will allow choice for between residential and commercial. The 3.5-storey zone will allow 4-storey apartment forms with assemblies of 4 or more lots.
Nanaimo at Venables is seeing a surge in lot assembly, as are a number of other sections of the arterials currently under planning.

Find out more about the City of Vancouver's proposed upzoning of a number of arterial streets and adjacent side streets in the Grandview planning area.

Date: Monday, May 7th, 7pm - 9pm
Location: Learning Resource Centre, (LRC), Under the Britannia Library, 1661 Napier Street

The proposed zoning changes to create new 4-storey zones may go to Public Hearing at Vancouver City Council later in the spring or during the summer.

A presentation and analysis of the City's proposed new 4-storey zones will be followed by open discussion, questions and answers. Additional guests will include Elizabeth Murphy and a former City of Vancouver planner. Joseph and Jeanette Jones will speak about the experience in the Norquay area in East Vancouver (around Kingsway and Nanaimo) following the City's upzoning and creation of new zones in 2013 and 2016 in that neighbourhood (further documented on the Eye on Norquay blog).

The City of Vancouver's materials from the March 14th and 17th Open Houses can be found online at vancouver.ca/gw. The area-wide zoning changes would allow for townhouses/rowhouses, 4-storey apartments and 4-storey mixed residential/commercial on parcels of land that are currently zoned for duplex and multiple family dwellings. Certain zones would encourage lot assembly by allowing for additional increases in density. The information panels from the City's last Open House and the proposed changes are listed in the following links:

• View overview map of proposed zoning changes  (448 KB)
• View the open house information displays  (10.4 MB)

Two policy reports for rezoning proposals in Grandview-Woodland have appeared on the Vancouver City Council regular meeting set for May 1, 2018. http://council.vancouver.ca/20180501/regu20180501ag.htm

These are the items:
2. CD-1 Rezoning: 2109 East Hastings Street

• Report

3. CD-1 Rezoning: 1619-1651 East Broadway

• Report

http://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/1619-1651ebroadway/index.htm
http://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/2109ehastings/index.htm

If these rezoning reports are referred, then it's possible that the items will be heard on the May 22nd Public Hearing, or perhaps on May 15th or June 5th (the agendas for the upcoming Public Hearings have not been announced yet). Members of the public can sign up and speak to City Council on these items and also send in correspondence.

​Update
The Panels from the open house have been posted on the BC Housing website.
www.bchousing.org/partner-services/public-engagement/projects/vancouver-1st-clark

If you would like to leave comments, questions, or concerns about the Withdrawal Centre proposed for 1st Avenue and Clark Drive, you may do so at  communityrelations@bchousing.org  or at  www.bchousing.org

Open House
The City of Vancouver, BC Housing and Vancouver Coastal Health are looking to put a large withdrawal management services facility at 1636 Clark Drive and 1321-1395 East 1st Avenue, on half of a City block.

An Open House is being held for feedback about the proposed rezoning at the following time and date:

Date: April, 23, 2018 (Monday) from 5pm to 7:30pm
Location: Vancouver Community College (VCC) 1155 East Broadway, Vancouver, Building B (off 7th Ave), RM 1236

A press release notes that a "withdrawal management centre within the planned complex will replace Vancouver Coastal Health’s current withdrawal management services facility on East 2nd Ave. It will include a range of enhanced services such as inpatient and outpatient withdrawal management, and sobering and at-home withdrawal management, which are trauma-informed and culturally appropriate."

Further information about the Open House and proposed rezoning can be found in the following documents:
www.bchousing.org/publications/1st-Clark-Open-House-Invitation.pdf
http://www.vch.ca/about-us/news/news-releases/new-homes-and-withdrawal-centre-for-people-in-vancouver

The following illustration is reproduced from the Open House invitation:

The City of Vancouver is organizing an Open House regarding a rezoning application at 1680 Adanac Street (at Commercial). The rezoning is for a 6-storey market rental building with a height of 73.7ft (22.5m), 38 units, 25 parking spots, and a floor space ratio of 3.0.

Date: April 19, 2018 (Thursday), 5-7pm
Location: 1607 East Hastings Street (Vancouver Aboriginal Friendship Centre)

The rezoning application is online: rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/825commercial/index.htm
The site is currently zoned as RM-4N: bylaws.vancouver.ca/zoning/rm-4&4n.pdf

A draft Master Plan proposed for the renewal of the Britannia Community Centre site will be shown at an upcoming Open House.

Date: ​Saturday, April 14, 2018 from 12 to 4pm
Location: Britannia Gym D, 1661 Napier Street 

Further details will also be on the City of Vancouver website: vancouver.ca/britannia-renewal

The City of Vancouver is organizing a public Open House for a rezoning application on a lot assembly at East 10th Avenue and Garden Drive. The proposal calls for the construction of a 66' (20.1m) tall, 6-storey building with 68 strata units and 73 parking units, with a floor space ratio of 2.65.

The Open House will be held on Thursday, April 12, 2018 between 5pm and 7pm at 3250 Commercial Drive (Croatian Cultural Centre). The site of the lot assembly is located in the Grandview Woodland plan area. Additional information about the rezoning application can be found on the City of Vancouver website.
(link: rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/2542garden/index.htm  address: 2542-2570 Garden Drive &
2309-2369 East 10th Avenue ).

Due to Easter Monday falling on April 2nd, the monthly meeting of GWAC will take place a week later.

Next meeting: April 9th, 7pm at the Britannia Learning Resource Centre

Meet the new board, hear from the local traffic committee, hear about the Britannia update from Cynthia Low, and join the discussion.